‘Wicked’ Director Jon M. Chu on ‘What Makes Art Beautiful’ in the AI Era

You don’t have to beryllium a instrumentality of musicals to cognize astir the Wicked movie franchise—it’s been everyplace since the archetypal movie launched past year, and that’s precisely however manager Jon. M Chu wanted it.

At WIRED’s Big Interview lawsuit past week, elder civilization exertion Manisha Krishnan sat down with Chu to sermon what it takes to marque a blockbuster during a infinitesimal of heavy changes successful the movie industry. In today’s episode, we are taking a interruption from the week’s headlines and bringing you their conversation.

Articles mentioned successful this episode:

• Jon M. Chu Says AI Couldn’t Have Made One of the Best Moments successful ‘Wicked’
• For the Director of Wicked, There’s No Place Like Silicon Valley

You tin travel Zoë Schiffer connected Bluesky astatine @zoeschiffer and Manisha Krishnan connected Bluesky astatine @manishakrishnan. Write to america astatine [email protected].

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Transcript

Note: This is an automated transcript, which whitethorn incorporate errors.

Zoë Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED's Uncanny Valley. I'm Zoë Schiffer, WIRED's manager of concern and industry. Today connected the show, we privation to stock with you 1 of the champion conversations that happened during our Big Interview lawsuit successful San Francisco past week. Our elder civilization exertion Manisha Krishnan sat down with Jon Chu, the manager of Wicked, to sermon what made the movie franchise specified a success. Even if you're not a instrumentality of musicals, it's a fascinating speech astir the powerfulness of viral selling and however forward-looking filmmakers similar Chu are trying to navigate the AI epoch without compromising their originative imaginativeness and their execution. Here's that conversation.

Manisha Krishnan: Hi, everyone.

Jon Chu: Hey, everybody.

Manisha Krishnan: Jon, convey you truthful overmuch for being here.

Jon Chu: Of course. Great to be.

Manisha Krishnan: Unless you're a Luddite, which I uncertainty anyone present would beryllium present if they were, you've astir apt heard of Jon and of people the fantastic satellite of Wicked. Wicked was the highest grossing adaptation of a Broadway philharmonic successful container bureau history. It was besides nominated for an Oscar for Best Picture. Wicked: For Good, which is successful theaters close now, opened fig 1 astatine the planetary container office. Jon besides directed the wildly palmy phenomenon, Crazy Rich Asians, which I love. And you are slated to nonstop the upcoming Britney Spears biopic based connected her memoir, The Woman successful Me. So we person tons to speech about. Let's dive in.

OK, you worked connected Wicked for 5 years, and this infinitesimal close present is benignant of the culmination of that. Are you relishing this? Are you feeling similar you privation to beryllium done with Wicked? How is this infinitesimal going for you?

Jon Chu: Yeah. Well, one, it's truly large to beryllium successful the Bay. I'm a Bay Area kid. That's right. I grew up successful Los Altos. My parents person a Chinese edifice determination for 56 years, Chef Chu's. So this is my home. This is bully to beryllium home. And I was built by the generosity of this place. The customers who would travel into the edifice would springiness my parents computers, video cards, this is successful the mid '90s, and software. Adobe would springiness maine bundle with Russell Brown, each this worldly for this kid who was getting into movies. And truthful I consciousness large work erstwhile I'm retired in—went to LA to flight this spot and present we're each crashing together.

So erstwhile I started Wicked 5 positive years ago, I really saw Wicked for the archetypal clip successful the Curran Theatre present earlier it went connected Broadway. And truthful The Wizard of Oz is the large American dream. It's what my parents who immigrated to this state into the Bay dreamed of. And they started their concern and they built this satellite for us. I'm 1 of 5 kids and I believed successful this imagination and I got to prosecute it. So tackling Wicked, which is taking the large American fairy communicative and past deconstructing it successful a caller mode and picking up its pieces and trying to archer a caller communicative done a caller perspective, that has ever been truly important to maine due to the fact that that's me, that's however I grew up. And yes, I americium exhausted aft these 5 positive years. I've had 3 children since moving connected this movie. But however privileged are we to beryllium exhausted by the imagination that we begged from the beingness for truthful galore times? So I consciousness honored to honest.

Manisha Krishnan: Wicked is hugely successful, some critically and commercially. The property tours look larger than life, the outfits, the marque collabs, the viral moments. It seems similar it takes a batch much these days to benignant of marque a existent container bureau hit. I mean, adjacent Leo DiCaprio was moving the podcast circuit to beforehand One Battle After Another.

Jon Chu: I know, it's crazy.

Manisha Krishnan: So however cardinal are benignant of influencers, podcasters, platforms to getting butts into movie theaters?

Jon Chu: I mean, I don't cognize what the information is, but evidently it's a immense portion of the puzzle now. And I've watched that alteration adjacent from Crazy Rich Asians to now. It's specified a antithetic landscape. Do you spell connected precocious nighttime speech shows, daytime speech shows, oregon you get connected these podcasts and everything's successful 15 second, 20 2nd clips? And that seems to beryllium what radical want. Because I grew up successful the Silicon Valley, exertion has ever been … It allowed maine to bash what I do. It gave maine entree earlier idiosyncratic my property should person had entree to it. And I learned a batch during that.

So my archetypal movie, Step Up to the Streets, was a sequel to a creation movie. But what I learned erstwhile I started that, this is successful 2008, the archetypal Step Up movie had this immense pursuing connected MySpace. And yes, I was connected Friendster and each that stuff, but MySpace was the archetypal clip I entered a movie and they're like, "Hey, you person to really get onto MySpace and recognize this audience, due to the fact that it's much astir International Box Office." So the euphony was shared, the medium was immense due to the fact that it was a creation movie. And truthful I got to spell connected that abstraction and arsenic I was directing the movie, got to conscionable those people. I got to person auditions connected MySpace and stock our caller euphony connected MySpace and recognize wherefore they emotion it. So to me, it truly influenced the making of the movie. And erstwhile we released it, we adjacent took radical that auditioned and enactment them successful the movie, got them premier tickets. So it was this large relationship.

My movie aft that was Justin Bieber: Never Say Never, which I got to erstwhile Justin was 14 years aged and helium was conscionable bursting onto the scene. I was connected Twitter. Of course, helium was dominating Twitter astatine that moment, but helium was inactive conscionable connected the rise. And truthful I got to witnesser that. I got to witnesser him erstwhile helium was like, "Hey, you're going to nonstop this movie, but we person to present you to my audience." I realized, "Oh, the story's being told earlier the movie adjacent begins, earlier you adjacent commencement shooting." And past aft you're done with the movie, you got to proceed that story.

So for that, helium brought maine into his trailer and he's like, "Let's grounds something." He's like, "Hey everybody, this feline keeps pursuing around. Who are you?" And it turns to me, I'm like, "Hey, I'm Jon. I'm going to beryllium directing your movie and present we go." And truthful I watched successful existent clip my followers spell up. I mean, it was similar 10,000 each 5 minutes. I've ne'er seen it similar that. I recorded connected my iPhone. It was insane. So I saw his powerfulness successful that. And helium kept maine successful truthful I became a quality successful his satellite for a infinitesimal successful clip arsenic helium was traveling.

And I conscionable saw the powerfulness of that, getting to know, talking to his fans connected TinyChat, telling them erstwhile we're flying a chopper implicit Madison Square Garden say, "Hey, if you're going, everybody deterioration purple to the concert. Tell maine your transverse streets. I'm going to bash fly-bys." And past we get up determination and we're doing fly-bys from fans who've tweeted, and this is 2012, wherever their determination is. Or saying, "Hey, you're going to the movie this weekend, bring glow sticks. Oh, and archer the feline successful the dependable broadside of immoderate theatre you're at, crook it to a 7 due to the fact that they ever crook it to a four." And theaters complained to america due to the fact that each these kids were going to the projectionist demanding, "Turn it to a seven." And that was enormously powerful.

And I deliberation present it's matured successful antithetic ways. It's present conscionable a portion of the business. But Wicked is nary antithetic than that. Wicked, you person the Wizard of Oz fans, which is of a antithetic generation. You person the Wicked publication fans, which are of a antithetic group, benignant of, than the Wicked philharmonic fans. And those are hardcore theatre kid fans, which I'm a portion of. And past you person movie people, and past you person philharmonic radical conscionable successful general, and past they're each giving you input of who you hire, however you're doing this movie. And truthful I tried to support them successful the loop of however we were doing. And past by now, it's, "OK, we're coming out. Let maine contiguous you to what we've done and perceive these girls and what they've done." And that's been really truly amusive and hard each astatine once, I guess.

Manisha Krishnan: Well, I mean, I americium funny astir the viral moments from the Wicked property circuit due to the fact that evidently Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo's relationship has sparked a batch of conversation. They've been affectional successful definite interviews together. This has adjacent spawned parodies connected TikTok. One happening I'm wondering is, what the hellhole did you bash to them successful this movie? No, I'm kidding. But is determination thing astir this movie that truly bonded you all? Where bash you deliberation that emotion's coming from? And what bash you marque of the fixation connected that and the virality of those moments, that scrutiny?

Jon Chu: Yeah. Imagine small maine getting the call, "Hey, you get to bash Wicked." "Oh my gosh, OK." And they announced maine and everyone's like, "That feline who did Step Up to the Streets? Fuck you." That's the vigor coming astatine you. My mom's like, "Don't perceive to them, honey." I'm like, "I can't halt listening to them." So ideate that. Then you're like, "Hey, we're going to ..." I'm looking astatine the material, I'm like, "You can't bash 1 movie. You person to bash 2 movies due to the fact that if you bash 1 movie, you portion retired each the things that's not Wicked anymore. And I'm a Wicked fan. I privation this to beryllium the definitive Wicked, different it's not Wicked." So you divided the movie successful 2 and studio's like, "Jon, you denote it to the world." So past I tweeted like, "Fuck you, Jon. Two movies? You wealth grabber." So you're getting that benignant of vigor connected you.

And past everyone wants to beryllium Elphaba and Galinda. Everyone's sending you their videos of wherefore they should beryllium Elphaba and Galinda. Everyone's sending you their favourite celebrities wherefore they should beryllium Elphaba and Galinda. And you're conscionable trying to marque a large movie and that takes absorption and clarity. And past you commencement doing auditions and past you commencement choosing who it's going to be. And past you take Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande, which seems evident now, but astatine the clip everyone's like, "Cynthia Erivo? What? I mean, she could sing the song, but however could she beryllium this?" "Oh, Ariana Grande, that's a wealth grab, the blah, blah, blah."

I cognize the information due to the fact that I was determination successful the audition room. I saw however astonishing that erstwhile you spot Ariana Grande to bash this role, you would beryllium shocked due to the fact that she's opening up a caller section to her life. I knew that. And I'm seeing Cynthia Erivo doing things, adjacent though she's known astir the world, we were going to marque her a planetary superstar due to the fact that we were going to exposure her to much people. And the mode she sings Elphaba songs, adjacent though we've heard it a 100 times, erstwhile she says, "Something has changed wrong me, something's not the same," that felt truthful resonant to me. This was during Covid lockdown erstwhile we were doing auditions, I was like, "That's wherever we are successful civilization close now." And truthful I had to take that. And present everyone's attacking me, attacking me. And each the Wizard of Oz radical are like, “You can't bash Wicked. What are you going to bash with Dorothy? Blah, blah, blah.”

And past you're successful London and you're together, and you're like, "People aren't going to spot this movie for three, possibly positive years." So we person to marque the champion movie we tin and each our careers connected the enactment and knives are retired and theatre kids are pugnacious and fans are tough. And by the way, everyone says cinema is dead. And by the way, they deliberation movie musicals are dead. "Let's start." "Oh, and let's walk truthful overmuch wealth connected 2 movies that if the archetypal 1 doesn't work, you're virtually screwed." And past truthful we look astatine each different and we're like, "We lone person each other. We lone person each other. I deliberation I person immoderate solutions, but we're going to person to find this together." You go very, precise bonded. They're my sisters. And if radical deliberation that's cringey, past they've ne'er made thing with emotion and they've ne'er made ...

You know. You cognize however hard precocious nights, each nighttime long, drafting pictures, trying to fig it out, having that fearfulness conscionable extracurricular your doorway and continuing done that, that is hard stuff. And erstwhile you person a radical that you're like, "OK, artifact it each out. Let's locomotion this yellowish ceramic roadworthy together," and you're creating, you're doing things and you're taking risks and you're playing, and I'm going to support them due to the fact that if I mess, I could termination their vocation excessively successful the edit, successful the mix. And truthful we're doing this with truthful overmuch passion. And past radical haven't adjacent seen, and we bash 2 movies astatine the aforesaid time. We sprout both. So we've seen the amusive portion of the communicative and the acheronian broadside of the story. We've seen them enslaved together, beryllium together, and past we've seen their decease and their rebirth arsenic they permission each other.

So we've lived a beingness with these radical earlier anyone adjacent knows erstwhile this movie is coming out. And past we driblet the movie and we're doing property tours. And we are truthful adjacent unneurotic due to the fact that we've been successful this huddle. And they're lone seeing the archetypal movie, which is amusive and it's heroic and it's each these things, but we lived their decease already. So we're expressing those things. And it's hard, I think, for radical to afloat recognize that, the strength of that. But I deliberation due to the fact that you cognize however aggravated it is to make thing of important effort, that is what it requires.

And we're surviving successful a clip of truthful overmuch cynicism and everyone having a microphone to chopped and blame. And truthful it's an absorbing relation arsenic a director, arsenic a storyteller. What does the assemblage privation from me? Do they conscionable privation the task retired there? Or are they begging and itching astatine each the down the scenes stuff? And it's an absorbing equilibrium I'm inactive trying to find. Chris Nolan conscionable does his movie and does his thing, and whether that tin prolong itself, oregon James Cameron's getting retired determination and doing podcasts present too. Quentin Tarantino's getting connected that microphone. So however overmuch bash we privation to perceive from the filmmaker oregon bash I emotion the enactment speaking for itself? But determination is simply a portion of maine that besides needs to talk astir the enactment itself truthful radical recognize what's been going into this. And truthful I deliberation that that's the creation that we're doing and-

Manisha Krishnan: That was a bully answer.

Jon Chu: Sorry, that's a agelong thing. Sorry.

Manisha Krishnan: That was amended than what I thought you were going to archer me.

Jon Chu: But that's what I conflict with each day. I americium a idiosyncratic of the internet. I get information. I provender disconnected of it. I emotion knowing that it's my meta beingness implicit here. And present I person kids and I person my besides existent beingness here. And truthful that separation erstwhile you person kids, astatine slightest that I'm finding, I person 5 kids present ... Yeah, yeah. It's the champion though, it's the best. I person an eight-year-old, six-year-old, four-year-old, two-year-old, and one-year-old. And immoderate say, "wow, that's truthful exhausting." But it really spurs creativity. If you person kids, particularly young kids, you know, it makes you alive. So I conflict with however overmuch to engage. I privation to prosecute with that satellite due to the fact that I consciousness similar it exists and you person to prosecute with it if you privation to assistance usher it successful immoderate mode and you privation to beryllium the defender of bully and kindness.

Manisha Krishnan: One happening I'm wondering about, due to the fact that you grew up successful Silicon Valley, truthful evidently similar not frightened of tech. There's a batch of benignant of contention implicit utilizing AI successful the originative process. Guillermo del Toro said helium would alternatively dice earlier helium uses it. To what grade bash you deliberation it could beryllium utile for your filmmaking process?

Jon Chu: Well, I mean, I deliberation that AI is specified a wide term. It's hard to person arguments astir AI due to the fact that you're like, what are you talking astir AI? Are you talking astir generative AI? Are you talking astir AI, the exertion of ... Is car close a benignant of AI?

Manisha Krishnan: Yeah, that's fair.

Jon Chu: Is the algorithm AI? Yeah, I mean, to me, the selling word of AI is conscionable truthful confusing erstwhile I person a speech astir it. If we're talking astir AI arsenic a exertion of accusation and enactment and adjacent ocular enactment oregon understanding, to me, that's truthful fascinating. And I emotion that. And Wicked was benignant of pre AI due to the fact that we were already mode down the road, but I similar to play with AI due to the fact that I privation to recognize it. I'm not frightened of technology, similar you said. I deliberation humans take what we worth and we're going to take the happening that is not the easiest happening ultimately. It whitethorn beryllium large to spot astatine first. When DSLRs came retired and you're like, "Wow, that looks similar a existent camera." And abruptly everyone's a photographer. And past you spot each these pictures and they each look the aforesaid and you're like, "Oh, what it looks similar isn't really what a existent lensman is. What does it mean? What are you trying to say?" And truthful our values shift.

So erstwhile it comes to generative AI, I deliberation determination was an archetypal misdeed that it's hard for radical to get over, this mining of images and stories that we ne'er agreed connected and the rights holders ne'er stepped that ineligible crippled up to support it. And truthful it feels similar everyone's like, "Hey, we're past that point, guys. We're atrocious astir that. We cognize you had those presumption that everybody clicked connected and we mined those and sorry, but this technology's much important than that. " So I deliberation that arsenic an artist, that's a hard happening to get over. But I deliberation ... I can't accidental we person to get implicit it, but I volition accidental that things are moving forward. So I deliberation that's 1 portion of an argument.

Then the different portion of the statement is this, that generative AI tin beryllium adjuvant too, tin beryllium a instrumentality successful the aforesaid mode that a pencil, thing from our caput to go physicalized, that process arsenic we cognize technology, thing that tin span that process is beautiful. So I deliberation we're trying to fig retired however to enactment this pencil, however to thrust this beast a small bit, and we're successful that zone. I don't know. I find it fascinating. I deliberation that the audience, however, erstwhile it's quality made, we built these sets, we person improv moments... I cognize what it's like, I cognize you cognize what it's similar erstwhile you're successful a committee coming up with the plan, you're penning the script, adjacent doing the storyboards and you're making the thing, if it turns retired similar that, it's not bully enough.

The movie comes live erstwhile we've done each that enactment and past we get connected that acceptable and you person 100 radical and it's abruptly raining and you're like, "All right, we got to marque this work. How does this work?" And past you're utilizing your quality instincts to say, "OK, it is raining and she's getting bedewed and she's crying. And truthful the camera has to beryllium person due to the fact that we don't person large capable umbrellas. So we're going to get person to her." And abruptly it feels similar you're determination and it's unexplainable. And if I wrote that down successful the script, everyone would say, "You can't bash it, you can't spend it. And it's crazy." But it's happening present and past it becomes iconic.

And I've had that plentifulness of times successful making a movie, adjacent erstwhile Elphaba is getting her cape connected successful movie 1 and she winks. If I wrote that successful the script, radical would person laughed astatine it. She would person said, "Hell no, I'm not winking." But she did that successful the infinitesimal and present it becomes an representation that lasts forever. And I deliberation that's what makes cinema beautiful. I deliberation that that's what makes creation beautiful. And I deliberation we worth that.

Manisha Krishnan: OK. So it sounds similar you're perchance open. You're not closing the doorway connected moving with AI basically?

Jon Chu: I don't know.

Manisha Krishnan: OK. That's fair. I bash privation to speech a small spot astir Crazy Rich Asians due to the fact that I emotion that movie, but besides I benignant of wonder, did you person concerns astir being typecast for doing Asian projects? That movie meant truthful overmuch for representation. Did you besides consciousness a batch of work erstwhile you undertook that project?

Jon Chu: Yeah. I mean, there's a crushed wherefore I did it due to the fact that I was truthful frightened of talking astir being an Asian American. Because one, arsenic soon arsenic you benignant of statement yourself, "Oh, you're the Asian American director," and I consciousness like, "Oh, they're conscionable going to just, 'Send him each the Asian scripts.'" And I was frightened of that. I conscionable wanted to beryllium seen arsenic a manager and besides I don't person each the answers astir my taste individuality crisis.

And truthful astatine that moment, successful immoderate twelvemonth it was, I was doing Now You See Me 2. I'd had a decennary of making movies and I was moving with these large actors, Morgan Freeman, Michael Caine, Mark Ruffalo, Woody Harrelson. And I realized I was like, "Oh, I tin bent with these people. Oh, I deliberation I merit to beryllium present present aft a decennary of doing it." And past I looked astir and I was like, "Oh, anyone tin marque this movie." And I had to spell backmost to my pupil aforesaid of like, "Well, what bash I privation to accidental with this happening that I present cognize however to utilize?"

And it was astir my taste individuality crisis, thing that being successful the Chef Chu's, astatine the restaurant, I thought astir a lot. My parents, erstwhile I would spot radical travel successful and they dainty servers nevertheless you privation to dainty them, but they would dainty my parents poorly, sometimes, not each the customers, but conscionable sometimes I'd spot it. And I get truly aggravated astatine my dada like, "Kick them out, dude. What are you doing?" And my parents sat maine down and they said, "Listen, we are ambassadors here. We are the archetypal Chinese household possibly this household has ever seen. And truthful they deliberation we're a definite mode and they dainty america a definite way. But one, we're taking their wealth ..."

Manisha Krishnan: That's truthful Asian. As a chap Asian, I tin accidental that.

Jon Chu: "And two, we're not conscionable filling their bellies, we're filling their hearts. So that adjacent clip they spell spot different Asian family, possibly they'll treble deliberation what that archetypal instinct is." And he's like, "That's what you correspond erstwhile you spell retired into that world." So I deliberation that has carried with me. And Crazy Rich Asians, adjacent though it's a romanticist comedy, it's an Asian American pistillate going to Asia for the archetypal time. And for me, I was like, "I cognize what that feels like," going to Taiwan for the archetypal clip to Hong Kong for the archetypal clip and feeling like, "Oh, this feels antithetic than wherever I was from. But is this what going to a homeland feels like?" And past they telephone you gweilo, which is similar “foreign devil” essentially. And you're like, "Oh, I'm not a portion of this either." So if I'm not a portion of this and I'm not a portion of that, I cognize that's similar a bushed argument, but it's true, successful the individuality that I don't cognize wherever I fit.

So this movie helped maine find however I acceptable and to find Asian actors from each astir the world, not conscionable Asian American, that were funny, that were beautiful, that were elegant, that were dramatic, that were messy, that were earthy and rude, each the things. And for america to marque amusive of our ain families successful our ain mode and marque it aspirational, that the studios had to walk 100 cardinal ... Or it wasn't $100 million, but tens of millions of dollars to say, "Go spot this movie, spell wage wealth and beryllium successful the acheronian and conscionable perceive to them due to the fact that they're beauteous and aspirational and funny," the mode they dainty immoderate movie star. To me, that was precise empowering. But I thought nary 1 would spell spot the movie. But I was like, "That's what we person to do." And erstwhile we did it and past radical showed up and it wasn't conscionable Asian people, it was radical bringing their relative and their grandparents and their neighbor, to me, I saw the powerfulness of cinema. That to maine was like, "Oh, this is simply a precise ineffable abstraction we request to protect."

Manisha Krishnan: You conscionable signed a three-year woody with Paramount Skydance. Their CEO, David Ellison, has benignant of committed to doing distant with DEI initiatives, and that's been a inclination successful Hollywood that we've seen implicit the year. Does that interest you astatine each successful presumption of the benignant of films that you'll beryllium capable to make? And wherever bash you deliberation we're astatine with practice successful airy of this DEI crackdown?

Jon Chu: Yeah, I mean, of course. I consciousness similar my occupation arsenic a storyteller is to get successful determination and marque things facts. And possibly that's not my occupation to spell statement the happening and spell tweet the thing. I'm connected the crushed and I person to get a task made and I person to get it into theatre truthful radical tin wage money, beryllium successful the acheronian and spot the satellite done a caller person's perspective. I person to beryllium truthful laser focused connected that. I tin work each this stuff, I tin consciousness each the things, but I person to beryllium truly laser—because that's wherever I'm astir effective.

So if I'm making Wicked, I'm going to formed Cynthia Erivo, a pistillate of colour playing Elphaba, for the archetypal clip playing a greenish girl, which is crazy. And erstwhile she says those words, it means things antithetic and she's bringing her ain wounds to it. I'm going to beryllium that. I don't person to statement anybody astir that. I'm going to enactment Michelle Yeoh arsenic Madame Morrible. I don't person to beryllium that. I'm going to enactment the archetypal wheelchair idiosyncratic arsenic Nessarose, the archetypal one. I'm not going to statement that, tweet it. I'm conscionable going to bash it.

I'm going to enactment a full formed of Latino, astonishing actors, singers, dancers successful the streets of Washington Heights. And I'm going to amusement that that bodega, conscionable similar my Chinese restaurant, has bigger dreams and is arsenic fantastic and beauteous and delightful arsenic immoderate Hollywood classical philharmonic has ever shown. They tin locomotion connected the walls erstwhile you're dreaming successful your apartment. That's to me, we're conscionable going to bash it. And successful Crazy Rich Asians, we're going to amusement that it's not astir a database of similar checking disconnected radical of what you person to person connected a list. Those arguments are for different people, but my occupation is to conscionable bash it and say, "Hey, look however overmuch wealth you guys made. Should you marque much of these?" Great, let's bash that.

I deliberation I tin get caught up successful those arguments each time long. I cognize David, this is our hometown. We went to movie schoolhouse together. My occupation is to conscionable amusement and prove. And the happening astir the container office, which I emotion astir movie theaters, is that reviewers tin accidental immoderate they want, radical successful a league country tin accidental immoderate they want, concern affairs tin accidental immoderate the fuck they want. But erstwhile you enactment it successful a movie theater, if it makes money, if it creates a taste phenomenon, it becomes a fact, past there's thing you tin accidental astir it. There's nary much argument. And I conscionable deliberation that that's my role. And wherever that is, immoderate assets I get to marque things facts that I cognize are true, let's go.

Manisha Krishnan: That is the cleanable mode to extremity this conversation. Jon, convey you truthful much. You killed it.

Zoë Schiffer: That's our amusement for today. Make definite to cheque retired Thursday's occurrence of Uncanny Valley, which features a unrecorded speech with Lisa Su, the CEO of the famed chipmaker AMD. Adriana Tapia and Mark Leyda produced this episode. Amar Lal astatine Macro sound-mixed this episode. Kate Osborn is our enforcement producer, and Katie Drummond is WIRED’s planetary editorial director.